Tubby interview: ‘Trump Worker 5,’ who unknowingly helped transfer labeled documents, speaks to CNN

You are Trump employee number fi You're a central witness in the classified documents investigation. Why are you speaking out publicly with your story now? Well, I mean, it's it's been almost a year since FBI.

Agents showed up at my house when my wife was at home. And, you know, over the course of the last year, emotionally, it's been a roller You know, a couple of weeks ago, you know, Judge Cannon says she's going to release the names of the witnesses.

You know, you go from highs and lows in th And instead of just waiting for to just come out, I think it's better that I get to at least say what happened then it coming out in the news, people calling me like crazy.

I'd rather just get it out there And, you know, the hope is at least I can move on with my l and get over this. I mean, your whole life changed as a result of this. What was it like last summer to read through.

That superseding indictment and to realize you are Trump employee number fi I mean, I was out with my family out of town on vacation. I got a phone call from my attor and he said, hey, they just arrested Carlos. And, you know, my heart just dro.

I mean, I'm like, oh, my God. Carlos de Oliveira, who is not only the property manager at Mar a La Was my best friend. I mean, we used to talk every da Every day. I mean, we were always at least in some sort of contact.

And you had just seen him a few days before that. I think four days he was at my h We played golf. We had a great t It must have shocked you, too. Well, it's you know, it hurts. No contact since then. And I should be clear. Jack Smith's investigators.

Sought you out. How many times do you think you' Have you talked to investigators They probably between four and five times. Can we talk about what started all of this, which is th I mean, Trump was clearly obsess with these boxes.

At one point in the indictment, someone refers to them as his beautiful mind paper. What was kind of known among the employees about about why he cared about these boxes so much for you guys. Did you talk about them? I never talked about them.

I really didn't even know what was going on until the investigation. I started reading in the news. Employees were getting interview The indictment. So June 3rd, you know, he goes b He went back home. You know,.

We had moved a bunch of stuff, the belongings, everything. That's when he's going from spending his time in Palm Beach to spending his time in Bedminster, New Jersey. That is correct. So, you know, we're there to assist with lugga.

Anything that needs to go to the So and since I ran the car servi I had, you know, employees come to help with luggage. And then we were going to bring it to the plane and the and then off to New York. They went. The other key thing about that i.

That was the day that his attorn were meeting the FBI at Mar a La the day before one of his attorneys had gone and searched the storage room, not knowing that was not a the body man who is now a codefe had been moving boxes.

In and out of that room the day Did you know about that? No, I never knew anything about And on June 3rd, you know, Walt had came up to me and asked me if he could use one of our escal Since I ran the car service,.

I pretty much kept control over the vehicles. I had loaded a bunch of the family luggage into a minivan and I was just going to drive it to the plane, load it up, and th But during the US getting luggag asked, Hey, I need a minivan.

Sure, go ahead. And then he left and I was I didn't think anythin It was a little odd the way he a I mean, it stood out now after a but him and Carlos were gone at that time. And, you know, I didn't know because typically.

He wouldn't go get a vehicle, drive himself and get luggage. So so it was unusual for him to make that ask of you. It seemed odd to me once. I figured how everything went do the line June, July and August. From what I learned, it.

Kind of made sense. Something wa You weren't just putting luggage on that plane that day. So I just had I only remember Trump family personal luggage. And then what happened is Walt left before me and he never goes directly to th.

He's either in the motorcade or when he goes there with the b which the former president. And I remember telling him he left the club with I didn't know what he had in his but he waited for me at a nearby business. And I told him I would tell him.

When I was leaving Mar a Lago. So I left Mar a Lago. I texted him, Hey, I'm on my way He followed me. He pulled out and got behind me. We got to the airport. I ended up loading all the lugga and he had a bunch of boxes. You noticed that? He had. But ye.

They were the boxes that were in the indictment, the white banker's boxes. That's what I remember loading. And did you have any idea at the time that there was potentially U.S. national security secrets in tho No clue.

No, I had no clue. I mean, we were just taking them out of the escalator, piling the I remember they were all stacked on top of each other. And then we're lifting them up to the pilot. How many boxes was it?.

They asked me in the interview, and I believe it was 10 to 15 is what I remember. I know it was the investigators. And when you look back on that n Well, I had no clue until probably the end of June there. There's a few different things.

That happened that kind of opened my eyes to, you know, something's going on h So you get that unusual request. Did you ever think to yourself, why were there so many boxes at Mar a Lago? For I'm just thinking now of the former president.

He has a lot of stuff he likes to lug around with them I never would have thought it was anything like what we see classified. I mean. On that day, as as you're loadin helping load these these boxes.

Unwittingly onto the plane and handing them to the pilots. Trump is back at Mar a Lago and did you know that his attorn were there that day? It's funny because I remember seeing this taller guy, I think slicked back silver hair.

I think it was Evan who I now know to be Evan Corcor And I saw a bunch of other people in the living room. I had no clue. I'm just seeing all these people I have no clue what they're ther I was on the cloister outside over by the bar.

The former president was walking the living room like he was going to enter the living room. He was with Secret Service. I remember he said hi to me. Hi, Hi, Mr. Trump or President Trump And then he went in and talked t But I had no clue who those peop.

And it was Evan Corcoran, Trump's attorney, and members of the FBI. J Brad, which, you know, I come to realize now at the same time he's going in t the boxes are going from somewhe in to a vehicle.

Which are eventually going to th which I load with Wolf. Do you ever remember seeing those boxes come back tom Logo? I don't. I do not. And then in June, a little bit later, you get a ca Carlos.

Telling you that Walt is coming to Mar a Lago. It was actually we we live liter 30 seconds from each other. Your neighbors were neighbors. So we would always go walk. And just on the walk, I remember him saying, hey, by t what's coming tomorrow?.

Oh, cool. That's great. I was like, okay. Was until the following day when we're out, walk. And he's like, Hey, by the way, it's a secret. Don't tell anybody what's coming and what? Why? Well, he needs me.

He needs me to find something ou before he gets here. What's that he needs? We don't know how long the camera footage is saved at Mar a Lago, and I'm lik Well, that's. That's odd. Why do you need the camera foota.

Why do you need to know how long it's safe? And his response was, I think they're looking for some that was there said, Oh, okay, I wonder who I h So he tells you that Walt's comi that it's a secret, but no one seems to know,.

And that they're looking to see how long this surveillance foota goes back. That's what he needed to find ou by the time Walt got there. So that would seems really odd t And then not many days later, when I receive a call from the corporate head.

Of security at Trump Organizatio saying, Why didn't you tell me, Carlos, move boxes that, you know, I didn't really He moved boxes. You know, I never saw him move boxes on Ju I mean, I know now that that's w it looks like.

What's going on him and what were moving boxes. And then he drove to the plane. But I had I had no clue. My response was, what did I move Did you see me on video moving? You know something? But I guess he had gotten a a a call from the.

Corporate attorney at Trump Orga and said, save this video video And that's when he went to look at the footage and said, why didn't you tell me, Carlos? You know, I guess it's Carlos was moving b And this is really important, this moment.

About the surveillance footage, because Carlos has now been he was indicted in part for lying to federal investigato because he was having a conversa with another one of your coworke about deleting that footage that had told him to have the server Did you and Carlos ever have.

Any other conversations about the surveillance footage? So sometime in August, after the When I when I met with the prose I said after the raid and they immediately correct me lawfully executed search warrant So after the lawfully executed search warrant,.

I was on a cruise the day that M they showed up at Mar a Lago. I was going to a cruise and I had gotten a phone call, but when I got back, like a couple of days from when I got back, I reached out to a friend of min who worked at another Trump prop.

And he said, Hey, by the way, your boys in tr I hear your boys in trouble. I'm like, What do you mean? And he's talking about Carlos. And I'm like, Carlos didn't do anything wrong. He's like, Well, that's not what I heard.

He asked you seal to delete video footage, and I said he would never do tha I mean, you SEAL's making that u Something's not right. So, you know, now I'm like, something is jiving. Here, and you seal Tavares is. He was the I.T.

Employee at Mar a Lago that in the indictment it says Carlos had the conversat with about deleting the server. Right. But that's the first I had ever That is when a friend tells me that my friend's in trouble, bas But when you started to think.

About the conversation you and Carlos had about surveillance footage and then you have this conversat are you beginning to get suspici It's all like a puzzle and it's little pieces here and And now I'm wondering and you know, I asked Carlos, I.

Did you say that to me? No, No, I didn't. I wouldn't. I asked him about the video footage, times the timing and how long until it deletes. He denied to you that he had tri That's correct. Get it deleted? That is correct.

But you got a call from Walt. Not after the search happened. What did he say to you? So I was on my way to my birthda down at the hard Rock. And I think I texted him like, h you know, we'll talk at like in I was with people or something. So I called him back and he's li.

Hey, someone just wants to make Carlos is good. I take that as you know, Trump's wants to make sure Carlos is so, you know, I reply, Listen, Carlos is very He would not do anything to affect his relationship with I've never seen him, you know, h.

Never been happier on the job. I mean, he had a very close relationship with the former president. It was everybody saw it at the c I mean, they were always interac they would walk around the prope They I mean, so, you know, I told him, no,.

There's there's Carlos would not do anything to affect his relationship with Why do you think you had to assu Trump's body man that I. I really don't know. I'm sure somebody you know, I th the former president told Walt to reach out to me.

I don't know why. And then did you later have to assure to anyone else th your friend Carlos would be loya So the end of that call with Wal he told me he's like, we're going to get Carlos an att It's like, okay.

So I get to the hard Rock or right around the same time fr And Walt says, They add me to a signal chat gro with Susie Wiles, and he says something to the eff Brian, just can you put in this chat what you just told me? So I type it up.

I say, Hey, you know, a little weird to me. But listen, Carlos is very loyal. He would not do anything to affect his relationship with He loves what he does, you know, and you don't have to worry abou to do that to that effect.

And for those who don't know, Susie Wiles is running Trump's 2024 campaign and Signal is an encrypted app where your messages disappear. C So what? Not A told you that they were going to get Carl an attorney?.

What happened after that? Did he get a call? So I'd say within 30 minutes. I think it's probably a lot soon I'm with Carlos. We're at the Hardrock by the foo and his phone rings and it's the former president. You know, he takes the call.

We're standing in the food court I think we went to sit down and he I can't remember how long the conversation was, but I know at the end of the conversation, when they hung up, Carlos said,.

He's going to get me an attorney Did he tell you anything else that Trump said? I didn't ask and I don't remember him saying anything else. But I was just told not that lon too long before we're getting him an attorney by.

And then he gets the call that he's going to give him the attorney. Who's paying for your attorney. I, I actually had reached out to counsel before anybody came to talk to me, just so I was prepared. I knew it was coming.

I just had a feeling. But no, I paid for my own attorn Why was that important to you? Something like this. I think it's better to look after yourself and take care of it yourself. You know, even the voicemail by the attorney that called me,.

You know, he says I'm representi former President Trump. Hey, Ryan, Good morning. My name is John Reilly. I'm one of the lawyers representing President Trump. It's my understanding that you got a grand jury subpoe Would you please give me a call.

At your first opportunity? Did you ever call that attorney No, I sent it to my attorney and let him handle it. Were you feeling pressured to stay in Trump's world. Carlos? I were very close. You know, as was previously repo you know, there was a golf tourn.

Carlos. Oh, let me get you tickets. Let me or I'm sure the boss would love to see You know, in my mind, you know, I would not step foot.

In any of his properties. Again, you know, the attorney, I think there was a lot of press there. I feel it got brought up multipl You know, he mentioned to me, why didn't why didn't you call h It's going to cost you a lot of.

I mean, you should see my attorn that I get. It's thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars. I said I'm okay. I'm good. So not only did you feel pressure to get an atto you were also being offered tickets and face.

Time with the former president. That's what he said. He said he'd love to see you. We Did Carlos ever imply to you, given your close friendship, I mean, the fact that your neigh you knew his wife, you guys had had decades of frie did he ever imply to you.

That he might be in trouble? He said everything will be fine. That kind of attitude, I never maybe a couple of times I saw him maybe a little nervous But overall, I think he feels like this is going to g Did the two of you ever talk about moving boxes.

Or looking back on that? Yeah. I mean, there was one time towar one of the last times I was with we're talking about, you know, boxes and, you know, well, Biden did the sa You know, you can't get.

It always got brought up about B and other people that did the sa And then there was one time he s you know, we're all dirty. We all move boxes. And I said, well, look, I didn't even know what I was mo until I was at the plane.

And that's when I remember movin You know the property really wel And one thing that we wrote about in the indictment that the prosecutor said was that essentially there were thousands of guests that had come through Mar a Lago in the period.

That the documents were they are correct know, they were kept in all kinds of public places. I mean, how secure would you say Mar a Lago is? Well, I mean, there's been some very public instances of people speaking on property.

Look, I think it's secure, but there were definitely a lot of gaps where people could get in very e Did who had access to the rooms where the documents were kept? I you know, I don't know if a master key, but I mean, like,.

I could have went and got a master key to all the you know, for check ins, you know, I ever saw all the che ins with the valets, all of that So I mean feasibly at night. Anybody could who made the call where these boxes were kept, You know, the PIO in the.

Pine hall was always guarded. You didn't have to worry about any security breaches for Pine H But, you know, definitely the lake room, which is pretty much above close to almost above Pine Hall. I mean, anybody could just go around the spiral staircase,.

Turn left in there it is. Anybody could access that room. Well, I'm sure you needed a key, but yeah, I mean, there were multiple ways to get to the lake room. How many people how to kill you? If you had to guess. I'm assuming they didn't change.

If they had the same lock. Oh, m They're probably over ten keys. 20 keys. I don't. I mean, all the managers kick had master keys. Do you view Trump as a national security risk? I personally would just say I just don't believe that.

He should be a presidential cand at this time. I think it's time to move on. Does it concern you that I mean. Do you think it should concern? Yeah, absolutely. I think we can do better. You're obviously a central witne in this case.

If it goes to trial, are you prepared to testify? Absolutely, yes, absolutely. His attorneys are trying to get pass the election. Do you believe that this trial should happen before the election? I mean, I think the American peo.

Have the right to know the facts that this is not a witch hunt. I mean, he can go on TV and say That's one of the reasons for do And quote, you know, the press says this an I think it's all bogus. But people believe him. You think it's a fair investigat.

Absolutely. I mean, to me, you have the law and order presi attacking agents, the special counsel, on an almost a daily basis when these people are just taking their sworn swor.

They took a sworn an oath to basically follow the laws of this country. And now you have somebody attack I don't think that's right. Must feel like you're choosing between loyalty to these to your friends and telling the truth.

Absolutely. And there's no person that wants loyalty more than the former president. I mean, he says it all the time. Given how other people who have been in Trump's orbit and left and told the trut.

And how they've been treated. Did it ever make you hesitate to No. Look, I was always going to tell the truth. But, you know, after one of the interviews with the justice, the investigators on this case, I think it got real.

When at the end of it it was either my second or third or fourth time talking to them where they said at the end of it, oh, by the way all of your grand jury testimony and witness testimony has been turned over.

To the Trump defense. You know, at that point you're l oh, boy, you know. Did it make you nervous? Oh, a little bit. But, you know, I don't want to live in fear. I mean, we're only here for a finite time.

To me, I refuse to live in fear like that. I mean, yes, cautious. But, you know, I'm going to tell the In those investigators that actually encouraged you to not talk to Carlos. They Did they? What were they worried about,.

Do you think? You know, I remember one time one of the members of the special counsel's team said, you know, they worry maybe he records you or maybe he's going to use stuff against you. It was a tough time.

I mean, I remember, you know, we were so close. So I remember, you know, he sent me a text one day after I had kind of avoided him. And it's like, you know, you never called me ba What did I do to you or something like that?.

It you know, it really it really I mean, I literally said, Are yo And I went to his house and I sa I've been told, really, we need to keep our distance. And I think his response is, Yea I know, I know you've changed and this and that, but, you know I'm torn.

I'm trying to do what they say, but I'm also trying to be a frie to my best friend. And I'm not trying to hurt him b giving testimony or anything. I mean, I mean, this is the thing I see this guy has the former president.

A divided the nation like I've never seen before. And he's now divided like my best friends since I was 19 years old almost. You know, we've been friends for And just think now you're just i I don't know. It's just very it sucks.

Well, the two of you are so clos And to go from having that to ha you know, now where you are, where you can may may remember this, you know, something that Trump's attorney general, Bill Barr, once said to me, which was Trump kind of leaves this.

This path of carnage in his wake of the people around him that become wrapped up in these investigations and scan Is that what you feel like? I felt like it was a total no win situation for me. I mean, they're asking me.

Questions about my one of my best friends. I'm being honest. But I also have a bad feeling th what I'm saying is getting him into trouble. It's just not nobody should have to go through that. And, you know, for him to get up.

All the time and say the things he says about you know, about this being a witch hunt and everythin it's it's all you know, it's jus he just can't take responsibilit for anything. It's really notable to hear this coming from you.

Because you are someone who was loyal to him You worked for him for forever. You know him really well. And so I just wonder, you know, you know, that once this is public, he'll try to distance himself fr or downplay your role.

How will you respond to that? No, I look, I expect nothing les It's fine. I know the truth. I you know, look, I'm not saying him and I were best friends and talk to every d but he knew who I was. I knew who he was.

How do you view Trump as a perso Unfavorably would be would be to to put it mildly. How important is it for you here to tell the truth? No. I mean, that's all we can do. I haven't tried to skirt anything with investigators or a.

I just. I feel it's the right thing to d The right thing for the country. I mean, this is so much bigger t It's bigger than Carlos. You know, this is a nation that to decide who's going to be the the next president. Were there ever any instances.

When you were still working ther you witnessed where Trump was, in your view, carelessly throwing around national security information? You know, that is really, you know, stood out to me, but i I believe it was April of 2021, there was a.

Member, Anthony Pratt, who he was coming. He flew in the night before. He's an Australian billionaire. He finishes his meeting with the former president, gets in the car, and his chief of staff says, how did the meeting go?.

Pratt, without saying, just says he told me. And it would be, you know, US military, you know, classified information of what he told them about Russian submarines in US submari And that's really all I remember.

And I went, What? You know, I'm thinking this. I'm in the car. I'm like that. I just hear that. So it wasn't like, oh, the meeting went well. We talked about it was he went straight to the point. He told me that the U.S.

Subs and with the Russian subs and you know something that would more than likely, in my mind be classified. So it was clear to you that he was basically seeking ac Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, red flags went up in my.

Years before that. So entity Pratt, this Australian billionai that you're talking about, he would pay a lot of money to to come and have these New Year's Eve pa So it might cost 1000 1500 dollars.

Per person. He was giving $1,000,000 and I think at the height he had 30 or 40 people there. So something that would be 50,00 I'll just say max 50. Here's a guy that's just buying It's very easy to see.

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